Star Wars Episode 7 News

Saturday, May 24, 2014

SPECULATION: The Case for Darth Plagueis In Star Wars: Episode 7 . . .


Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? 

Never appearing in a single movie, nor The Clone Wars animated series, this line uttered by Chancellor Palpatine to Anakin Skywalker has set-off a firestorm of speculation and debate across the world wide web. Dare to make the jump and herein discover the case for Darth Plagueis . . .


I'm not going to lie, as the kids like to say these days, but this article was one of the hardest things I've ever had to write. I've pried this Rubik's Cube apart several times and put it back together again, only to find that the colors aren't completely solid, thus I'm not completely sold. I compare trying to decode this enigma kinda like trying to navigate the world with prism-lens glasses -- there's a lot of angles on it, very distracting and distorted. Still I will attempt to shed some light on this mystery so we all can crack the case of the Episode VII "Big Bad."

The Beginning is the End, so that's where we'll start. For the sake of argument the Sequel Trilogy is the last of this series, which would have a sense of symmetry. In the sale video to Disney, George said, "We've got a plan for seven, eight and nine. Which is the end of the trilogy," I take to mean the "trilogy of trilogies," (but of course Disney will have the final word on that.)




IF the ST is the end of the current series then Disney/LFL can pull out all the stops. So what do we require of our main villain? Let's take a look at what Harry Knowles, the Grand Pubah of genre Blogging, had to say on the matter:
"My original source had told me back in January that Abu Dhabi was a location, and when that came to be, he sent me a scoop that the title for STAR WARS EPISODE VII was THE ANCIENT FEAR.  

Tonight...  a source that I'm told to call Col. Mustard claimed completely on his own that "the working title" was THE ANCIENT FEAR....


He also stated that "it refers to Max Von Sydow's villain who makes Pazuzu look like a pussy!"
For the uninitiated, Pazuzu was a demon, one of Satan's minions, in The Exorcist. We're talking PURE EVIL!

What else is required of our villain? According to John Morton who played "Dak" in the Empire Strikes Back, the villain is going to bridge the whole franchise together. Of course he had no "official information" about this but was making logical assumptions. He's right. The villain should be someone who binds the Star Wars universe together. So the villain IS NOT someone completely new and unknown. These will be our working theories, so now to build a case...


Recall Episode III: Revenge of the Sith:

[Chancellor Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker talk about Skywalker's dreams]

Palpatine: Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?

Anakin: No.

Palpatine: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying.

Anakin: He could actually...save people from death?

Palpatine: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

Anakin: What happened to him?

Palpatine: He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power...which, eventually of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death...but not himself.

Anakin: Is it possible to learn this power?

Palpatine: Not from a Jedi.

Was this a simple bit of throw-away dialogue written by George Lucas to motivate the plot OR is this the key to the entire Star Wars mythos? I've already mentioned The Power of Myth and Joseph Campbell's influence on George Lucas. If anyone needs a refresher check out the provided video.




There can be no doubt that mythology informs Lucas' work, especially as it pertains to Star Wars, thus we can move forward under the presumption that it wasn't just a "throw-away" and does have more meaning. But what meaning exactly?

The tale, a tragedy, of Darth Plagueis is the perfect starting point for setting up a mythological exploration into life and death in the galaxy far, far away. After all, we have seen that those especially strong in the Force have managed to survive beyond death in the form of Force Ghosts --


A method of, or conduit to, immortality that Qui-Gon Jinn discovered and passed-on to Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi. It stands to reason that the Sith would also have a similar ability or at the very least seek some form of immortality. James Luceno, author of the "Darth Plagueis" novel, gives us some insight as to this mystery:
"In dealing with Plagueis' quest for immortality, I originally structured part of the book as a kind of race between him and Qui-Gon Jinn, they inadvertently sabotaged one another without either of them realizing they were pursuing the same goal. In the end, Qui-Gon succeeded by making contact with the Whills- the mysterious species of immortals George Lucas mentioned in an epigraph for the first Star Wars novel." ―James Luceno, Star Wars Insider, Issue #130, 2011
While the Jedi don't attain a corporeal, tangible immortality they can influence those living in "reality." And so Darth Plagueis the Wise was on a similar exploration of this mystery as the back of his book intimates:

"...The only one who never died?"
But we don't have much at all to go on in terms of material to dissect Plagueis or his exploration into immortality, except for the novel entitled "Darth Plagueis." First and foremost it should be noted that the "Darth Plagueis" book, part of the "Expanded Universe," is no longer considered canon. However, until something from the books is directly over-written, IE contradicted by a film or show, I think it's safe to use them as guidance in our speculation. 

So could the novel have an influence on what will transpire in Episode VII? Perhaps. The book was closely guided by George Lucas via Howard Roffman. In an interview with author James Luceno published at TheForce.Net we read:

How closely did you work with Lucas Licensing on Darth Plagueis? How much did George get involved? What advice did he give you?
"George was involved in the early stages. When the book was first proposed, I wrote to him and asked whether there was any reason why Plagueis couldn't be a non-human, and he wrote back that Plagueis could be a Muun and sent me some artist renderings of the character. From that point on, everything was approved, as they're saying, “at the highest level.” I worked most closely with George's right-hand man at Lucas licensing, Howard Roffman. It was a strange way to go about the book, because I kind of had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard over the course of what amounted to about a year of preparation [...] that a lot of the stuff came from the very top levels of Lucasfilm. Everything was approved at that high level. I had to make the assumption that Howard was speaking directly with George about a lot of this stuff. I didn't have any meetings directly with George, but it seemed like a lot of the approval was coming through him to Howard."
The book was published on January 10, 2012. This IS an important clue for one simple reason -- George Lucas had already been working on the Sequel Trilogy. In fact George's son, Jett Lucas told us his father was working on the treatments for the ST a full year before the sale was finalized:
"We knew probably a year prior (to the purchase) he had started writing and king of researching, starting his whole little process," Lucas said about his father. "About half way through that process was when the idea of selling to Disney came up . . ."
According to Pablo Hidalgo Lucasfilm Ltd. employees learned about the ST on June 29th, 2012 and then the rest of the world was notified on October 30th, 2012. So roughly five months after the book was released the Sequel Trilogy was announced to his employees. And as we all know Lucas wrote the treatments for the Sequel Trilogy, which served as the foundation for Michael Arndt's and then Abrams & Kasdan's scripts, and sealed the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney:

At first Lucas wouldn’t even turn over his rough sketches of the next three Star Wars films. When Disney executives asked to see them, he assured them they would be great and said they should just trust him. “Ultimately you have to say, ‘Look, I know what I’m doing. Buying my stories is part of what the deal is.’ I’ve worked at this for 40 years, and I’ve been pretty successful,” Lucas says. “I mean, I could have said, ‘Fine, well, I’ll just sell the company to somebody else.’ ” Once Lucas got assurances from Disney in writing about the broad outlines of the deal, he agreed to turn over the treatments—but insisted they could only be read by Iger, Horn, and Kevin Mayer, Disney’s executive vice president for corporate strategy. “We promised,” says Iger. “We had to sign an agreement.”
So what's in the book?


Let's look at some of the clues that I discerned . . . First, we know that the Sith have actual identities that they are born with, but, unlike the Jedi, assume new identities as Sith Lords. For example Palpatine is Darth Sidious, Count Dooku is Darth Tyrannus, Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader etc.... And Darth Plagueis we learn was a Muun named "Hego Damask." I actually wrote about this on a message board last winter as I was reading the book. This is roughly how I interpreted his name: 
Mythology is ALL about subtext and symbolism. Hego Damask. He got the Mask = very interesting. Damask comes from the medieval word "damaske," which is derived from Damascus. I thought, incorrectly I guess, that damask was a type of fabric or material used in veils (form of mask) but is actually a fabric used in curtains, table clothes, or textiles. Perhaps, Plagueis is "the man behind the curtain" of course an archetype of sorts as seen in The Wizard of Oz as well as LOST (which referenced the idea as an episode title.)
Now, at this point I can't seriously see George Lucas creating this kind of [META] mythic character as a "throw-away." There is just too much potential here, especially now since he's been established in ROTS, a novel, and action figure. Yes, I said action figure because it suggests to me that there is a reason why Hasbro would invest the time and energy in developing an action figure solely based on a brief mention in a movie and one book. Not only that, but they were directed to stop producing Expanded Universe action figures, except for Darth Plagueis and Mara Jade:

"Hasbro has been directed by Lucasfilm, Ltd. to avoid the Expanded Universe like the plague. Not only is it next to impossible that we'll see a brand new Expanded Universe figure in the near future, older and hard to find figures will NEVER see re-release either. 
Hasbro said, and I quote, to "not expect to ever see Jaina Solo or Jacen Solo or any other older Comic Packs figure re-released in any way to get out to collectors."
As we explore further into the book we learn the Sith agenda to exact revenge on the Jedi Order and the galaxy at large was threefold:

1- To destroy the Jedi Order
2- To save the beings of the galaxy from destroying themselves . . . [by instilling a Sith-led Empire]

And the one that seems to get overlooked:
3- To destroy the "Rule of Two"

YES! To quote Plagueis as he speaks to his former Master Darth Tenebrous whom he just slayed:

"Go to your grave knowing that you are the last of the old order, the vaunted Rule of Two, and that the new order begins now and for a thousand years remain in my control." -- Chapter 1, Page 16
To me that line clearly states that Plagueis' intentions, which could set up the ST brilliantly, is to allow for multiple Sith Lords, if not a Sith Legion, to exist at once. Perhaps different factions -- one led by Sith Spectre Palpatine and one led by Darth Plagueis -- battle for control of a galaxy in chaos. This could easily facilitate any "secret apprentices" that may suddenly appear. Remember that Latino Review posted a rumor about this:
Anyway, then came a rumor that actor Ian McDiarmid was to return for a role in the upcoming sequels [...] Palpatine comes back as a Force Ghost..like Obi Wan. (Sith Lords learned similar techniques, which in some cases allowed them to physically interact with their environment.) [...] Palpatine had a new apprentice before he got killed.
Moreover, that quote from Chapter 1 gives us explicit insight into Plagueis' intention to rule for a thousand years. How is this possible unless he felt that the secret to etrnity was within his grasp?! Again from the novel we see that he wanted nothing short of physical immortality:

"Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer [...] which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. [...] But none of this amounted to corporeal survival. Plagueis had no intention of being a lingering, disembodied presence [...] Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another [...] or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than immortality of his body and mind would suffice. Everlasting life."

So, knowing all this, let's take another, closer, look at the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise as told by Palpatine.

"Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life."

It is no coincidence that, as Plagueis was experimenting with the Force and attempting to uncover the secret to immortality, the Force itself created a being named Anakin Skywalker, at least this is what the book leads one to believe. Plagueis was stretching the bounds of corporeal power as we'll see... 

"Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew."

Did Darth Plagueis really learn the secret to immortality? Throughout the book Plagueis experiments on a "secret apprentice" that his Master, Darth Tenebrous, had been grooming. Over a matter of years Plagueis repeatedly takes his victim to the brink of death only to bring him back. But we are never told directly that Plagueis ever learned to apply this power to himself. And the anticlimactic end of the book leaves it fairly clear that Plagueis didn't achieve the physical immortality that he so desired as he ended up as an urn full of ashes kept in Palpatine's office. This ending has really fueled the fans' speculation as it seems inconceivable that such a powerful Sith Lord would be killed by getting drunk and falling asleep. It seems the only way Plagueis could have survived is if he achieved some form of "essence transfer" to another vessel, which was unacceptable to the Sith Lord, alluded to in the passage I just quoted. However, this is the book we're talking about. So if George wanted to he could have over-written the part about Plagueis' ashes being kept in an urn.

"Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew."

Did Darth Plagueis really teach Palpatine everything he knew? Well, IF we presume he didn't know the secret to immortality he could not pass it on.  IF he did know the secret, we know he didn't pass it on to Palpatine as this is revealed to us when he tells Anakin, "the power to cheat death is a power only one has achieved. Together, we can work to uncover the secret." He clearly misled Anakin as to his power to teach this ability. And later, as he attempts to turn Anakin against Mace, Palpatine says,  "I have the power to save the one you love! You must choose!" Essentially this evil politician and Sith Lord is, of course, a liar. We don't know what the truth in his words is if there is any at all.


It appears very likely that Max Von Sydow, with his gravitas, is playing the villain. (Harry Knowles' "source" confirmed this as well.) So it seemed a little odd that he was absent from the first table read as not seen in the April 29th cast announcement photo. Could it be that he is purely lending his voice? That seems like a waste of his talents but perhaps the Big Bad is going to be a CGI character as suggested by spidey1994 of ComicBookMovie.com. I doubt that they would choose Andy Serkis to play a tall, gaunt alien, but Darth Plagueis could be payed by an extra with latex prosthetics and CGI enhancements.


So let's recap what we have going FOR our case:

1- We have George Lucas creating a great little myth within ROTS
2- We have George Lucas guiding a book about said myth, while . . .
3- We have George Lucas writing treatments for a Sequel Trilogy
4- We have Harry Knowles claiming that the Big Bad will make Pazuzu petals look like a pussy
5- We have John Morton speculating that the Big Bad will tie the whole franchise together, which Plagueis could through Sidious
6- We have Jedi with the ability to reappear in the corporeal realm, and Jedi and Sith have similar powers, yet the Sith don't have this ability . . . yet
7- We have Hasbro directed NOT to make EU figures except Darth Plagueis
8- And we have legendary Max Von Sydow with his gravitas to play an epic villain

And here's a brief list of the cons against our case:

1- Plagueis was killed, burned, and placed in an urn
2- Where was he during the OT? Easy enough, as in the man behind the curtain left the heavy lifting to Sidious and Vader. But where has he been in the 35 years since their defeat?
3- What does Plagueis being the real bad guy do to the OT? Does it make Sidous seem rather pointless?

While none of our "evidence" by itself points to any one specific villain, it does give the Darth Plagueis camp alot of ammunition. I mean, Who in the Star Wars universe could live up to this kind of mythic proportion? Well, Darth Sidious is rumored to be returning as a Sith Spectre. I'm not sure he attains the level that Knowles describes, unless the ancient fear is that Sith learn to come back as ghosts like the Jedi and influence the corporeal world. Sidious could tie everything together, of course, however we already defeated him. How many times will it take? And I've already written about the potential that the Inquisitor could be the Son of Mortis incarnate. BUT a Sith Lord that somehow found a way to become immortal would have to be the Big Bad to end all Big Bads. 


145 comments:

  1. I want to see a spinoff movie that covers Darth Plagueis' baby years. Was he a good baby? Was he a bad baby? What was is crib like? These are the questions that need to be answered on screen.

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    1. As for the appearance: What if they stick to the story that Plagueis is a Muun, and still let von Sydow play him? Plagueis could be using a "changeling net", Sith magic or whatever to appear human, but at the climax of the movie his "true" Muun form is revealed.

      This also adresses the potential problem of von Sydow's age (85). If he is able to reprise the role in Episodes VIII and IX, well and good. If he is not available, Plagueis now appears in his Muun incarnation instead.

      Thus the films will also remain compatible with the (well-received) Plagueis novel, only with the new element that Plaguies somehow tricked Palpatine and wasn't really killed by him after all. Perhaps he simply kept a low profile during the OT, using his von Sydow-ish disguise.

      I would NOT want to see Palpatine reduced to a mere front figure; so much of the story depends on him genuinely being the Big Bad. But perhaps the Bigger Bad was out there, biding his time and maybe even using the Rebellion as his instrument to effect vengeance on Palpatine. (Maybe it was Plagueis who made sure the Rebels got the Death Star plans, for instance?)

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    2. Good suggestion Cenindo

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    3. I was thinking along the same lines: Plagueis was betrayed by Palpatine and fooled Palpy into thinking he had killed him, letting him finish the job of eliminating the Jedi while Plagueis stays in hiding and waits for the right time to re-appear and rebuild the Sith Order

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    4. What a brilliant post lol. The ideal reply for a Mr. Echo-07's article.

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  2. Nice article congrats! I really hope to see another villain... Because those cons u already wrote are very important for me.... Where he has been for 35 years? .... I hope they dont come with something like.... When palpatine got killed he went into a slumber or something like that... I dont know i feel like this new enemy should be something epic... Like evil himself! The dark side of the force reincarnated ... But not plagueis.... Just my opinion!

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  3. Darth Plagueis is dead, lets move on.

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    1. So is Boba Fett. Let's move on.

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    2. Yeah, bring back characters from the dead is pretty stupid, they might as well have clone palpatine.. Is it so hard to bring in a new villain?

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    3. Um how is it bringing back a dead character if he never died? That's the point of this article.. He may have survived and went into hiding without palpatine knowing, and then trained sith, which he then makes his presence known at this point in time, which we know is set 35 years after return of the Jedi. It's plausible.

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    4. Why not bring back Hayden Christian to play a cloned version of Darth Vader there we go Vader's back on the big screen!

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    5. The Boba Fett comment was a low blow, there's no emotional connection to Darth Platapus unless you're a PT nerd. We never saw Boba die...just sayin.

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    6. Darth Plagueis would've been a cool, iconic villain - in the PT. Sixty years later? Not so much... -_-

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    7. Darth Plagueis is back or he would not have been mentioned in the ROTS

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    8. Boba`s escape is pretty easy to put into film, he rigs his jet pack to explode and kicks it basically into the gut of the sarlac it explodes he gets found half dead by Dengar whom we never see after his moments on the star destroyer and is Bobas wet nurse til he can function again! a salve ship which is Boba`s Slave 1 is enslaved to his wrist which is a computer console.. this is common knowledge, Where as Plagiues had his throat cut with a light saber by a powerful sith lord... Apples and Oranges.. Boba`s early years would make a good three film run, Boba`s later years a hell of a good set of films.. And even though he was kidding Landos adventures wold make a great set of films sadly you would have to recast!. Luke is Luke he`s got no flash no real charisma he is what he is.. Leia is annoying pretty much never found her that attractive even as a slave on jabbas throne.. There are tons of movies that could be made. These 3 films should have furthered the story of the skywalkers which was the original 1-9 story line Anakin -Luke -Ben!! but then id love to see Cade Skywalker the drugged out bounty hunters tales on screen even animated would be a great adult oriented show.. which we need some of!!!

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  4. And plagueis looks like voldemort! That sucks imo for a saga far more important like star wars

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  5. I hope he's kept away from EpVII. Nothing about the character is interesting or appealing. Especially the EU version.

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    1. Of course the blind EU hate can never stop...

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    2. I know right. Hate the EU! Hate the prequels! Hate everything Star Wars but the OT and puppets!

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    3. Give in to your hatred! Let the hate flooooow through you! Good! GOOOOD!

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    4. Darth Plagueis could be a terrific villian. It would be brilliant. He may not be new to us. But for general masses, he will be damn new. "Hey he was Emperor's master!" will be the general talk.. that would be enough.. getting the father, son, daughter and mortis will not have such effect. But who knows..

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  6. Dont get me wrong, this would all be very awesome and make for a great story !
    But i do think we will get a new villain.But Plagueis would be cool lore wise.
    Just imagine Sydown voice to this awesome CGI character played by Serkis.

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  7. This is the best article I've ever read on this site, Echo-07. Bravo! Excellent research and analysis!

    Here is another point in favor of Darth Plagueis being in Episode VII that everyone overlooks:

    Disney is desperate for a Lord of the Rings type epic.

    Since the early 2000s, the corporation has gone after Narnia, unsuccessfully tried launching their own franchises dealing with sorcery (Prince of Persia, Sorcerer's Apprentice, John Carter, etc.) They have even incorporated Lord of the Rings-ish epicness in Pirates of the Caribbean (Davy Jones's immortal heart in a box). In all these movies I mentioned, there is one Big Bad Guy (ie, Sauron) with many (sometimes armies) of bad guy followers (ie, orcs.)

    Would it not be logical to assume that VII, VIII, and IX will be about a Sith uprising, with a head Sith guy commanding a legion of sith followers? This theory fits, because remember too:

    Morriband.

    What better use for a Sith planet than to have a secret location where the sith can train, multiply, and grow in power and numbers (ie, Mordor.)!

    Also, take into consideration the nature of the Force: it always blances itself between Light and Dark, with no one-side being dominant for long. Would it also be too illogical to assume that the Dark side must multiply to compensate for the Jedi who flourished after Return of the Jedi, (trained by Luke Skywalker, or others)?

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    1. What a stupid change of name ...Morriband....not like Mordor but like moron....

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  8. Or maybe Sidious lied and Plagueis never died but was in the background to make sure the Sith survived, and now he is reado to strike.

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    1. There is absolutely no reason for Palpatine to have not killed Plagueis. It's pretty clear that the emperor didn't want any other sith around that could match his power.

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  9. If they do bring back Plagueis, they'll need to redesign him. We can't have another noseless evil wizard. But Palpatine could just have been mistaken and think Plagueis is dead.... afterall the guy claimed to know a thing or two about immortality.

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    1. How can an immortal villain ever be permanently defeated?

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  10. Dude, this site is so great. You guys are awesome. I truly hope that we'll see Plagueis for the first time in the big screen.

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  11. One big problem with this theory (which is a theory I actually like) is that Lucas has said before that the Sith can't come back after death. He even stopped an episode of The Clone Wars from having Bane and Revan appear as Force Ghosts because of it. His reasoning is that the only way to retain identity is to be selfless and balanced, something a Sith could never do by their very nature. I know George has changed his mind many times before, but this seems like something that has only been reinforced over time in his mind.
    The only way this theory could work is to use the transference idea, and it fits very well with the comparison to The Exorcist. It is a very creepy idea that this Sith spirit has been leaching onto other beings all this time in order to survive. The only thing I wonder is why it takes this long for him to become a real threat? What happens between ROTJ and EP7 that allows him to become a large enough threat? I don't think it would work to make him the power behind the Emperor as Palps was already defeated, and it makes Plagueis look a bit too weak if he was already thwarted 30 years ago. And it also doesn't fit with Palpatine being so smug when he is describing how Plagueis was so easily killed.
    It would be nice to see the article updated to reflect what Lucas has said on the subject of Sith survival after death. Just because he changes his mind sometimes doesn't mean his statements should be ignored when they don't fit the theory.

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    1. but the whole selfess and balanced thing is to come back as a force ghost. This is dfferent, this is cheating death via the dark side of the force. That stuff has never been tapped into before, it's always been force ghosts via the light side of the force. There's nothing stopping us from exploring what the dark side can do.

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    2. Are you saying he will have retained his body too? That is something different than what I was writing about.
      My whole point was that IF he is some kind of free-roaming spirit (not having to be attached to an object or being), as I assumed in what I wrote, then how does that not diminish the idea of Force Ghosts? What does it matter if you use the Light Side to retain identity vs using the Dark Side. The whole idea of keeping your identity is to show the weakness of following the Dark Side. If they can live beyond death in a similar way to Light Side users, then the Light Side loses something that was very special. The line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" would lose its power if the Sith can retain identity too.

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    3. I reckon Plagueis should come back as a force ghost and transfer his conscience into a powerful Jedi, disrupting the balance. He bends his mind to the dark side and then moves into another Jedi's head. He slowly destroys the Jedi order. Then he uses his new position to gain power over the galaxy

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    4. Please, no. How can such a person be defeated? What's to prevent him from eventually coming back again and again?

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    5. More to the point - if we're talking about a Sith Lord who is able to join with the Living Force and become one with it, then break partially from that unity and present himself as a manifestation of the Force (like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan), then what is stopping him from being able to effectively "rummage around" inside the Force itself and pluck other long-lost Sith Lords from the aether and help them to manifest as well? That could then potentially mean that we could have all the old Sith (Bane, Malak, Krayt, etc.) manifesting all over the galaxy, assuming control over several systems and their armies, and establishing Sith training worlds everywhere. Scary thought. Especially if through manifesting in the Living Force meant that they had a powerful influence over the Force in others - they'd be able to corrupt a force-sensitive individual's thoughts, emotions and reactions, thereby engineering any situation they wanted....

      How would they be defeated? Well, with the Father, Daughter and Son of the Force on Mortis being dead, I have no idea. Unless they, too, know the secret of immortality, but that seems unlikely with the last episodes of TCW season 6 and the mucking about that Yoda had to go through to learn the technique.

      I'd hate to think that it's all going to end up in some hideous ghost war like Ghosts Of Mars. That movie made me want to gauge my eyes out....

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    6. "I reckon Plagueis should come back as a force ghost and transfer his conscience into a powerful Jedi..."
      That doesn't address my point that GL has said they CAN'T come back because only someone selfless and balanced (and apparently trained by the Force Priestesses) can do it. If Sith can come back as spirits, then that ruins the whole point of the Force Ghosts (to show that the Light Side is more powerful in the long run and the Dark Side only leads to oblivion).

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    7. This is "Anonymous at 12:55 PM" again.
      I just had a thought of how Plagueis (or maybe Palpatine) could retain his identity, though I can't say I would like to see it done as it is a little silly and kind of taints something in the OT and makes Force Ghosts Yoda and Obi-Wan look weak. GL has said that the way Anakin was able to retain his identity without training was through the help of Yoda and Obi-Wan. They helped to guide him back from total absorption into the Force. What if Anakin had the spirit of Plagueis (or Palpatine after the reactor shaft) leaching off of him (in this idea the spirit doesn't take over the body, but simply feeds off of it until it can find a way to come back with power). When Anakin dies, the spirit has no Dark Side user to flee to and is clinging desperately to Anakin's weakened form as he passes. He is about to fade away with Anakin when Yoda and Obi-Wan begin to guide Anakin back. Plagueis (or Palps) then hitches a ride and somehow is able to also retain his identity. Like I said, this is a bit silly (and still messes a bit with the idea that only Light Side users can do it) and makes the Force Ghosts look weak if they can't tell a Sith Spirit has come back. They are part of the Force, so they should feel the Dark Side spike at that moment. But, I just thought I would put it out there anyway.

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  12. Maybe Plagueis has been possessing various people over the years and has been building a new Sith army in secret on Moraband all this time. Though that may be a bit too like Sauron.

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  13. Possible plot, but sounds very Prequelish to me. I doubt Kasdan and Abrams went down that road.

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    1. Well actually the opera scene with the tale of darth plagueis the wise is actually the only good and compelling scene of the prequels and I bet George knows it. Maybe that was in his plans, which would be before Kasdan and JJ presumably liked it as they agreed to sign onto the project.

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    2. You never know, I figured they wouldn't care about cartoons of CW or Rebels either but they are Canon now, so how this new trilogy is being derived, we may not know for a very long time to come. I'm hearing that characters from the new cartoons can or will have ties to new trilogy, so some prequelish stuff may result.

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  14. All these people who dont like Plagueis to play the new villian are comics fans...not movie fans. Comic language is the worst thing for an epic movie script. That was the big mistake with Ep 1,2 and 3...Grievous saying:"General Kenoooobi", Yoda saying: "Count Dooooku" and Vader shouting: "Nooooooouuu" are COMIC STYLE LANGUAGE. For a comic fan the Big Bad should be: Completely new, Young, very muscle strong, with new weapons and with a sexy dark voice....I really like the idea of Plagueis because it will tie the whole franchise together and it will be a trilogy of trilogy...if some people wants a completely new villian then why are Ford, Hamill and Fisher necessary??? You comic people to be happy need a EU movie with a script like Transformers or G.I.Joe.

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    1. Well i'm an EU super fan and comic fan too and i do not want to see this idiot Plagueis, more accurate i do not want to see any Lucas created character from the prequels but i don't want to see either someone total new....

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    2. Why must we look back in order to move forward? The three trilogies are already all tied together by being in the same galaxy with many of the same characters.

      Thirty years between VI and VII is plenty of time to establish a brand new villain. No PT characters, please.

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  15. I don't want them to go, I want them to go forward. But if you're going to have an 85 year old sith villain, then you have to explain why he wasn't around during the OT, which is going back anyway so there's no avoiding the problem anyway. This is at least a friggin' awesome theory to have Plagueis be the main villain. A villain even more evil than Palpatine? FUck yeah!

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    1. This reeks of "biggerer and badderer". The next main villain doesn't have to top the last; just become memorable and hold his or her own.

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  16. ;outstanding article Echo-07;would love to see Star Wars with a dose of LOTR epicness injected into it - Plagueis depicted in Moraband would certainly have rich potential.

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    1. .... surely this is just AotC? Long shots of two opposing armies, clashing in the middle of some desolate landscape?

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  17. Great article. I've always been fascinated by Darth Plagueis, that mention in ROTS made me check out the Plagueis book which was the only EU book I really enjoyed. Even with the EU now non-canon Plagueis was mentioned in the movie and wouldn't everyone want to know more about the master of Siddious? The 'death' of Plagueis in the book is, as you say, unsatisfactory so it could be redone or we could find out he didn't die.

    And as the real mastermind behind the conspiracy in the prequels he would make a great villain if we discover he's been behind the scenes ever since.

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    1. Behind the scenes doing what exactly? In six movies, he's only briefly referenced once.

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  18. Plaguéis cmanipulated sidiuos to kill him, be cause he already knew how to reach immortality and let sidiuos purgue historia plans white he go on shadows be cause forsaw the fail of the empire

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  19. The corporeal return of Darth Plagueis is so inconceivably unlikely; I think it would be a bad step. We want heavy cohesiveness with the existing six films, but EVERY new Star Wars film came with uniqueness that fit into this world, not a resurrection and 100% reliance on the content from previous films. I just don't see this happening in one of the episodes.

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  20. Perhaps we are all overlooking that the big bad could be the Dark Jedi.

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  21. Jacen gone dark, Jaina fighting him, with all the rest...this era in EU is the the least crowded and i don't think Disney wants to mess with EU fans ..maybe they will try to make something new but they will try to gain EU fans approval too

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    1. If Daisy is a Solo, I would like to see a twist where she turns to the Dark Side while trying to bring back her brother. Maybe she even slays him and that is the last step in turning her. EU fans would not be looking for that if they think they are replicating the books.

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  22. This site is awesome I love the contributions by everyone! I agree thus was one of the best articles. One thing I have to say though is there was an article a few months ago that had quotes from George's biographer that said he has seen all of George's notes and that there was outlines for 12 episodes. Disney knows Star Wars is a huge cash cow that's why they are making the spin offs, I think we can definitely count on seeing 12 episodes. I think this big bad guy will bring back the dark side to the galaxy and this first trilogy will be about showing an end to the beloved characters to the OT. Like the prequel trilogy it will be about evil gathering it's strength and then the last trilogy will be about it being destroyed again. Lastly one thing we all need to keep in mind is Disney and JJ want this trilogy to be like the OT to satisfy and rectify the criticism from the prequel trilogy. I feel from what news this site has dug up about episode VII they want to go back to simple. They want to have jokes and simple plot for everyone to be able to fallow. They want to satisfy both young kids and the fans who hated the prequal trilogy and think nothing will ever beat the OT. I think we will see a very simple plot. I think that is their goal and unless there is a simple way of explaining Darth Plagous to kids, the people who have never seen Star Wars, or the lax fan who has only seen some of the movies or all the movies only once, I would not expect to see him in the film. I stand by my opinion that Disney will make 2 trilogies and that the goal of this film is to keep is simple and solidify the fan base. Show the old fans that Disney can make a Star Wars film and grasp a new generation of fans. I would not expect anything complex in the plot.

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    1. But here's the thing that the prequel haters don't get, these prequel haters will hate the sequel trilogy just as much. I guarantee you this. They will want something to replicate that euphoria they had watching the OT as kids. But here's the thing, you're not kids anymore. It's not the early 80's anymore. Get over your undying hatred for the prequels. The prequels are important part of the saga like it or not so accept

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    2. I know you think you understand why many of us hate the prequels, but trust me you really don't. I don't hate them because they don't make me feel like a kid again, I HATE THE PREQUELS BECAUSE THEY SUCK. They are objectively bad movies. The characters have no depth and no charm. The dialogue is horrible. Often the special effects were distracting instead of serving the film.

      There is almost nothing redeeming about the Prequel Trilogies. I truly wish that were not the case, but it's true. The Original Trilogy was fun for kids and was fun for adults because THEY WERE GOOD FILMS.

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  23. I think people are getting a little caught up in the details here. Based on what is strictly in the movies, this sounds great. I am a huge fan of the movies and have never read any extra literature and I think I represent the majority of people who will go see this movie, and i don't see any reason why they should use any other character as the bad guy. He's the ultimate sith, he taught palpatine everything he knew, and has cheated death. That's all i need to know. How he shows up and why can be written out in any way that makes some sense and I'll be happy.

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    1. i agree completely. there's always a bigger fish...plague is the bigger fish.

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  24. Plagueis is a great way to tie the whole Opera together. But he is not necessarily in Episode 7. There may be mention of him. But he could play a much larger role in 8 and 9 like Palpatine did in 6.

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  25. Please don´t bring back already dead characters...it would be soooooooo soap operish....I wand a new, fresh villain. I don´t want some uncredible Sith lord who remained hidden until he is 85 or something...he didn´t show up during PT.....he didn´t show up in the 23 years of Empire.....he didn´t show up the next 30 years......more sense has to rise a new threat...

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  26. What if Sydow is playing the Dude from SW Rebels the Sith Inquisitor just 40 years later. What if he is Voicing that character?

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  27. I've been bashing this idea because I think there could be a far better one, but the way the article presents it promises potential assuming that it is what Lucas wanted. In which case we can easily explain the Plagueis was off rebuilding the Sith Empire during all this time and returns in Episode VII to destroy a not fully established and recovering New Republic

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  28. You said where has he been the past 35 years. What if after ROTJ he took over and the past 35 years have been "the darker times" if you will. What if since Palpatine's death he has brought the Galaxy into a worse state than what it was in A New Hope? or Palpatine never actually died and it has been him and Plagueis ruling with an iron fist for 35 years and the Rebel Alliance is still around and holding on by a thread even with a small "platoon" for lack of a better word, of Jedi lead by Luke Skywalker. They got rid of EU which means even though we see a party at the end of ROTJ it may have been them just winning the battle not necessarily the war.

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  29. This theory just does not make sense .... why in the last episode of war clones revealed that only Jedi could become the force spectrum.

    Assuming that "the dark side is way to many skills considered unnatural" and that the sith are excellent handlers of mind, which I think we can do is to question the veracity of the tragedy that ended the death of Darth Plagueis. Darth Plagueis could have manipulated the minds of palpatine into believing in trajedia that ended his life.

    by: Darth Sula.

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  30. Plagueis: "Luke, I am your Grandfather!"

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    1. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

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    2. LMAO

      LUKE: Gather 'round Grandpa Plagueis, kids. He wants to tell you all the story about Episode 0.
      BEN: Awww, do we have to, Dad? He smells like midi-chlorians. q:-(

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  31. Great article- though at this stage it is all (educated) speculation. I don't think they will hold back with the evil- if anything it will be darker and scarier than the OT- it needs to have that kind of impact, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some truly frightening stuff in 7, along with Plagueis, resurrected Palpatine, Vader clone, and various other nightmarish spooks..

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  32. If you want to see how the ST should be handled, watch the last third of an anime called Gurren Lagann. Of course, I recommend watching the whole thing, but the last third is how you tie a series together. It's only 26 episodes.

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  33. could Plagueis have achieved Imortality by Planting his essance into the Mind of Jacen Solo, Thus leading to the Darth Caedus Story Arc, but with a different motivation, because in all seriousness Jacen's excuse for going Sith was a weak one at that.

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  34. plagueis looks like voldemord.

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  35. Putting Plagius in a movie makes the great Darth Sidious look inept. Spinoff maybe.

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  36. Lucas said Sith can't be ghosts. The idea that Plag would be hiding & watching his apprentice rule an Empire makes zero sense. These guys according to Lucas are power hungry. If anything Plag would have killed Sidious when he was at the peak of power & taken his Throne.

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    1. Nobody cares about Lucas anymore.

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  37. lets move on, folks. this character was long gone before the prequels even began. we're looking at all new heroes and villains in the new trilogy. the EU is also dead. let's move on and enjoy what the new films have to offer.

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  38. Great article, Echo-07! :D

    That said, I hope we NEVER see Plagueis anywhere near the Sequel Trilogy. God, this doesn't feel like classic Star Wars. This just feels weird. Let Sidious and Plagueis remain dead, Disney. Lucas' ideas, although potentially interesting, ultimately move us further away from what made Star Wars great in the first place.

    Plagueis didn't even show up during the PT. Why should he be in the ST? And if he has attained immortality, can he ever truly be defeated?

    Give us someone new, memorable - and mortal.

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  39. So in this theory what would be the ancient fear? Plaguies wouldn't really be that old so is it the fear that the Sith discover immortality?

    I'm glad you mentioned Con #3 since I was thinking it as I was reading. They stand to lose a lot if the ST detracts from the importance of the OT.

    Also I can't shake this fear that Palpatine will return in ghost form to warn the heroes about the ancient threat (out of spite presumably for Plagueis or whoever). If that happens I'm out ...

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  40. What about the Mortis Arc and the surviving son? I am sure that was created in the clone wars (canon!) for a reason. Though the Abeloth arc is now a legend. Perhaps DP IS the son? or somehow achieved immortality through the son? The Son is immortal anyway...

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    1. I must be about the only person who didn't like the Mortis episodes. To me it just introduced a bunch of symbolism that we didn't need presented in a way that was a stretch even for science fiction. Anyway the Mortis Son bears a striking resemblence to the Inquisitor on Rebels (though whether that is by design or the product of laziness I have no idea) so he's probably more likely to be tied into that at this point then VII.

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    2. The Father, The Son and The Daughter all died during the Mortis arc. Anakin is te embodiment of The Father, but who are the embodiment of The Son & The Daughter? Perhaps Plagueis could be the representative of the Son, but I think it's more than likely Luke & Leia.

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    3. You aren't alone RocketKnight13. I thought it was waayyy too mystical and just plain weird. Totally out of left-field for Star Wars IMO. The last episode with Yoda had some strangeness mixed in as well that I didn't like, but overall it was a cool episode. I also wasn't a fan of the Nightsisters stuff. I guess we'll see where they take it with the movie...

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  41. SUPERB article, you've got me convinced!

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  42. I think everyone is missing the obvious. The villain has to be a character which has either already been seen or talked about in the previous episodes, or the story will feel like a weak knock-off sequel, no matter how well it is told. A trilogy of trilogies means everything must come full circle. So think about it. Which character was around or referenced throughout the whole saga? Who could live that long and retain his power and strength? Who would the other characters trust but not question any motives? Who would be silently lurking in the background, secretly guiding everyone's destiny? Chewbacca! Chewy is Darth Plagueis!

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    1. Honestly I have a long-standing belief that R2-D2 is a Force-sensitive droid and he fits your description pretty well ...

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    2. Good point. Lucas has always hidden things inside droids. Anikin was probably created by Plagueis. Anikin built 3PO, and in RotJ 3PO says "I never knew I had it in me."

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    3. Why does the ST have to be a trilogies of trilogies? Why can't it just continue the adventures of our heroes, old and new, in the same wonderful galaxy 30 years after Episode VI?

      Why look back when we can move forward in a brand new saga that spans six movies (VII-XII)?

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    4. Heck, I can't think of any reason why they'd stop at XII (unless the movies stop drawing).

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  43. If Plagueis comes back from the dead in VII, how do you defeat him?

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  44. I’m glad someone finally mentioned Abeloth (AnonymousMay 25, 2014 at 4:48 AM), I was wondering when she would be spoken about. Since hearing the working title of The Ancient Fear the connection there screamed out at me as she is constantly being referred to as Ancient. Also, what with the Son/Inquisitor tie in it just made me think about it even more.

    Wookieepedia describes Abeloth as the Mother in the Mortis family so there is a connection to the Son/Inquisitor there ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abeloth )

    Before anyone even mentions it I know the EU is not canon…I think everyone gets that but as Echo 7 says above, until something completely overrides it it is still ok to speculate and discuss. Just because something is no longer canon it doesn’t mean the minds and memories of the people that have indulged can just be obliterated. I personally think that the Fate of The Jedi series sucks and bores the shit out of me so if this Abeloth idea as a concept was to be incorporated into the new story I would initially be pretty disappointed. Of course as its Star Wars I’d get over it once I saw the new movie!!

    I for one really like this Darth Plagueis idea and if it turns out to be the way the new episodes go then so be it. It’s good to see that Lucas had a hand in developing the book even if it was through someone else if that was the case. I think a lot of these EU haters would be interested to read how much Lucas did know about what was going on about the EU stories even if that involvement was only miniscule. Read the conception part here for New Jedi Order http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Jedi_Order . I think that the New Jedi Order theme sucks too and I’ve never read it…just passing on what I’ve read. It’s also safe to say that Wookieepedia is not all true and as with IMDB etc it can probably be filled with content by anyone

    Anyway, all I’m saying is that there’s a lot to be read into with what’s going on and not everything people say including Lucas himself can be taking too literally. Lucas as we know is prone to change his ideas and views at the drop of a hat to fit what he wants to do.

    Darthe Plagueis was the first EU book I read. This was only a few months before the Sequel Trilogy was announced and at that time I had no idea that there would ever be any more Star Wars films let alone the bounty of things that is to come over coming years. I thought the book was extremely well written and was on par with many books I liked that were not even remotely in the space opera/science fiction genre.

    There’s a lot of great content in Echo’s article and out of all the ones of his I’ve read this is the best. I was also happy to see above that someone spotted and shared a view on this that I’d been having. People keep asking where Plagueis has been for the past 35 years since the end of the OT…who’s to say he’s been anywhere? Who’s to say that the day after the Emperor fell to his death that Plagueis didn’t reveal himself and for the past 35 he has been at large and the ST will pick up the story 35 years into this new story. There’s a lot to be said about the opening crawl and it sets the theme for the movie

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to write so much then 

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  45. As fun an idea as it seems, Lucas has explicitly stated that Sith don't do force ghost. They cling to life and are dead when they're dead...no matter what silly stuff Bioware tries to sell. Cloning and other fancy stuff are on the table though. I suppose it's also possible that Plagueis really never died. Palpatine hung around for a while after finally killing him but I don't remember the book saying anything about Palpatine disposing of his body.

    Lucerno workign that closely with Russell for that long though...that's gotta mean something.

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    1. Well Lucas has said so many things... I think it's positive that he changes his mind as the time goes by, although sometimes is for bad. StarWars seems kinda organic and evolves with every new movie. Let's see in which direction they take us now with the ST.

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    2. I hate Lucas for that. I think Sith should be able to posses objects or tombs because of their strong emotions of hate, anger and the fear of loss but on a low rate...because it is "unnatural" and hard to achieve...

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  46. Having Plagueis around is a fun way to bracket the 9-film saga. Not as a predominant villain, but a menacing echo creeping about the fringes, working his evil through the new villains. Maybe Plagueis foresaw the birth of Luke and Leia, and engineered Anakin partly to see these gifted twins brought into the galaxy, with ambitions towards corrupting them. But, with both actors being so much older, it's the new generation who will give any Sith ghost a run for his money.

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  47. Andy Serkis: CG Darth Plagueis

    Max Von Sydow: The Inquisitor

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  48. Ian played that dialogue beautifully in revenge of the sith....the prequels were hit and miss...but that scene was great acting you could tell ian enjoyed it

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  49. The Plagueis theory feels a lot OT. Palpatine was in the background for almost 2 episodes, ANH and ESB. We can say the same for Jabba before the terrible cg Jabba of the new edition. If the big three have an important role, the bad guy can't be something new. He has to come from the past. In a trilogy of trilogies, ep VII is the right place for THE ANCIENT FEAR to show up.
    If we look at the movies it's a good way to "tie the whole franchise together", maybe not the only, but I'm ok with Plagueis.

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    1. cgi jabba in anh is awful. i will not watch anh again until that scene is removed. utterly unnecessary to add jabba to anh.

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  50. Honstly, I'm excited about there being some new Big Bad and finding out who it is and how they manage to tie them in to the OT and PT, if at all. I just hope JJ and co steer clear of:
    1) a mission that involves one or more of the cast having to jump from one spaceship to another,
    2) make a big thing out of the rumoured jet-cars that were also in ST
    3) the whole of the planet of Tattooine. I can't tell you how bored I am of that frickin' planet. Yes, we get it, it's significant because that's where Anakin was from. But for crying out loud, you have an entire universe to explore - stop re-hashing the old shit all the time and push your incredible creative department to come up with something (several things, hopefully) drastically inventive and new!

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  51. I wasn't happy about returning to Tatooine, but if EP7 is intended as an introduction to young movie-goers who don't know Star Wars, then it's a good choice as a starting point, and it's always fun to see the funky aliens mooching about the grimy streets.

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  52. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  53. I know that Mr Lucas has slipped up a few times with regards to plotting, but am given to ponder if the vague nature of Anakin's conception and hints of genetic tinkering by Darth Plagueis were intentional and always intended to be picked up later. I know Lucas long stated that EP6 was the end, but he must have already been sketching future plot-lines out of whimsy, even if ultimately he was perhaps never to give EPs VII-IX the green light. His plotting for The Clone Wars reveals his need to keep extrapolating and cross-pollinating - he has a restless creative urge, even if it is unfocused.

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  54. To Echo-07 -- I think your theory is full of crap and Max von Sydow won't be Darth Plagueis. You'd be alone in your prepubescent over-analyzing of expanded universe canon. LOL

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  55. luke or lukes kids is ,or is possessed/ influenced by plagueis. having his DNA so to speak.

    nah thats crap

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  56. I wouldn't want to see Plagus. It would be too convoluted and too oriented around the petty technicalities of force powers and it would legitimize the prequels too much.

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  57. I really like the idea a changeling. But what if that meant that Sidious was a changeling . And maybe being Plagueis apprentice he did learn how to save himself, thus the reason for finally killing plagueis, nothing more to learn from him. this way he can come back as his "true form" in the ST and could explain any other apprentices, he was building an army of Sith during the OT and no Jedi was aware of it, if he could assume any form his apprentices would never have to know they are working for the same leader, thus no jealousy. Then it's just we missed that part of the story. Then that also solves the problem of force ghost. maybe he has died many times and come back in physical form. Could also explain other than, extreme force lighting, which I hate, why he is disfigured by the force lighting and no one else ever has been. He used his "Changeling" ability to influence Anakin when fighting Mace.

    So in a way Plagueis does tie the story together but he isn't really in the story, his apprentice is.

    Why Does Sidious not help Anakin save Padme? He is evil, maybe he wants anakin to suffer, have him angry, as he said, it gives Anakin focus ;).

    Or maybe he wasn't building an army during OT, but he did for the next 35 years ;)

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    1. Also explains why out the blue in Episode two and three we see these extreme plot points that exist no where else in the Star Wars movies, and get merely a mention. Those plot points being Changelings and Plagueis.

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    2. Is this the same Butch Vig who engineered Nirvana's album "Nevermind" and was a founding member of the musical group "Garbage"?

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  58. An interesting theory, Echo-7, and an excellent article. At this point, anything is possible!

    I see a couple of basic problems with the Plagueis idea, though. (And I apologize if these may have been brought up earlier in the thread - I just now got back from traveling all weekend and haven't caught up on all of the comments yet.)

    First of all, seeing as how one of the key points that Abrams, Kennedy and company have made a point of raising is that they want to go back to a lot more practical effects and rely less on CGI for the ST. Having a Muun as the main villain would seem to fly in the face of this, since it would obviously have to be a CGI creature. They could certainly do it, of course, but IMHO it would remove a lot of the humanity they seem to be aiming for if they were to have a computer-generated model as the face of the so-called "Big Bad".

    Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, this whole idea sounds way too Voldemort-ish. The true personification of evil lays in wait for over half a century before returning from the edge of death to wreak havoc on the galaxy, and when he comes back he's a pallid, snake-faced critter? AND he has a direct connection to the hero/heroine of the story (as the case may be)? I think Abrams and company (and the Mouse) would be very reluctant to create a SW trilogy that hinges on something so very close to what we saw in the Harry Potter series.

    Again, anything is possible at this point. I just don't see this happening quite this way.

    (YMMV...)

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  59. First of all this was a great read! It would all make sense honestly! So good job on this!

    Second, considering that Lucas Film haven't yet made an official statement in regards to events in the "Old Republic" would it be that far off to assume that this "Ancient Fear" is in fact Darth Vitiate? He could basically such the life form out of entire planets at a time...What if he's the Sith Lord that Max Von S is playing?

    Just a thought :) Cheers all!

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  60. Look, all you guys are, quite obviously, "Star Wars" experts. But do you honestly think JJA is gonna pay ONE IOTA of attention to all that backstory stuff? Look at how he destroyed Star Trek: rich & deep in backstory as "Star Wars", yet all he did was push some "fan service" buttons by bringing in well-known characters from the "Star Trek" mythologywith INSTANT name appeal & recognition (i.e., Spock, Captain Pike, Dr. Carol Marcus, etc.) and have them on-screen sake just for the sake of them being there but with ZERO character personality & behavior authenticity.
    I'm to understand that Lucas even screwed up accurate backstor continuity in the PT with stuff *HE HIMSELF* thought up!! No: EU being disregarded aside, all these plot points and things that you guys are bringing up will absolutely not be adressed in any way, shape or form in the ST. What you WILL get is a lot of wierd, close-up camera angles of glossy-skinned, pouty-lipped, cover-of-GQ--level pretty boys & girls.

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    1. You know nothing iPadCary

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    2. Oh, don't I, now ....?
      Here, look at this: https://twitter.com/depresseddarth/status/469596046398480386

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    3. Did it ever occur to you, iPadCary, that the roles of director and writer are two very different positions in film making? JJ had absolutly no part in writing any of the new Trek films.
      Your lack of knowledge on the subject, and faith disturb me.

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    4. why should jj be responsible? He only directed the movie, what a fool am I to think that he actually has any influence on the end product?

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    5. Hear, hear. JJ had all the creative power one could get with the new ST movies, and look at what he did. "A lot of wierd, close-up camera angles of glossy-skinned, pouty-lipped, cover-of-GQ--level pretty boys & girls" - couldn't have said it better myself. Too bad people like iPadCary and myself are in a minority.

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  61. Couldn't "The Ancient Fear" just as well be something that pre-dated the Sith? That, perhaps, inspired the birth of the Sith?

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  62. Darth Plagueis is dead, and also not be a Star Wars VII and must shoot the Star Wars 0.

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    1. Your comment makes absolutely 0 sense

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  63. Think that Plagueis fits perfect, a "new" villian must exist in the new trilogy, powerfull, wise and in hidden...I dont think that GL wrote something that had no sense in ROTS, for me is all linked and now is a perfect time to show up.

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  64. I agree, it would wrap up the ultimate Trilogy of Trilogies nicely.

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  65. Think that Plagueis fits perfect, a "new" villian must exist in the new trilogy, powerfull, wise and in hidden...I dont think that GL wrote something that had no sense in ROTS, for me is all linked and now is a perfect time to show up.

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  66. Great article, thanks! Fun to read. My contribution is this: Seems to me that that Adam Driver guy already looks kind of like the drawings of Plagueis.

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  67. Darth Plagueis is Gloriously Interesting. He bought and created the Clone Army. He could not see the future because of the Maxi's and his Fishhead Master. He was a super scientist so he found out he was infected. Knew in his current body he could not achieve his goal. Waited until he had set Palps in motion and Kissed the sky....
    Only to Essence Transfer into a Max Von Sydow cloned Muun body. I suspect the Ancient Fear is a Sith who can not die. He may even get killed a few times in ST. He was also Maimed and missing pieces of his face, had damaged hearts, but most important lost his connection in his current body to the force. He knew this, he was Wise. He knew Palps would kill him if he got drunk. HE DID NOT FIGHT IT. HE WANTED TO DIE. HE WANTED A NEW BODY free of damage and infection. He did not teach Sid alot. LUCENO says he is part Vampire, Godfather, Scientist and magician.

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  68. To everyone saying that George Lucas has said that the Sith can't come back from the dead as Force Ghosts and using that argument to diss the theory about Plagueis being that "Ancient Fear" I ask you this:
    What if Plagueis had become so powerful with the Force (influencing midi-Chlorians and all) that he no longer possessed the traits of the Sith but also of the Jedi..? After all that's what's balance to the Force really is right?
    So what if, Darth Plagueis is the only Dark Lord of the Sith that can achieve the status of Force Ghost?
    If so, that could explain his "slumber" between Ep 6 and 7 (although if that's the case of the villain I expect JJ Abrams to explain it even further and better in the movie) What if the last 30+ years after the destruction of the Empire he was possessing bodies or trying to master how to possess them as a Force ghost? And eventually he achieves this (enter Max Von Sidow) He could be the one with the power to bring Lord Sidius as a powerless Force Ghost to taunt him and show him his failures to destroy his Master and that the Master was always around and ever powerful.

    Food for thought :)

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    1. Sounds an awful lot like Voldemort...

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  69. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  70. there's always a bigger fish

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  71. While I still consider this theory a stretch, one more thing that lends it consideration in my mind is what they chose to focus on in the final season of Clone Wars. Namely: (1) Immortality; (2) The Muun

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  72. Clue in ESB:

    -Master Yoda you can't die!
    -Strong I am with the force, but not that strong.

    Assuming Yoda isn't joking, and he doesn't seem to be in the mood for jokes, he is saying that reaching a certain level of strength with the force can defeat death.

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  73. Apols, I mean ROTJ. This dialogue would make a good beginning to a Darth P. ep 7 fan trailer, like the ep 3 ones that began with Alec Guinness voiceover taken from ep 4

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  74. Yoda "strong I am ... but not that strong"

    cut to Darth Plagueis

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  75. I think it's fun to theorize on stuff like this, but sorry, Darth Plagueis is dead. The idea that he could have survived somehow all these years goes against the theme of the EU book you reference. The theme is that Plagueis messed with the Force so much that the Force struck back in the form of Anakin Skywalker. That whole book would be pointless if he was able to gain immortality. It was a tragedy, plain and simple.
    Also, although Plagueis wanted to get rid of the Rule of Two, Sidious did not and kept it going, which is why he KILLED Plagueis.

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  76. Great thought provoking article. The first thought I had when reading this was that Plagueis would be a perfect villan to tie all 3 trilogies together. In episode 1 Anakins mother talks about becoming pregnant without having intercourse, which if Plagueis could create life from midi-clorians, that could explain Anakin's high midi-clorian count and force sensitivity. In both previous trilogies skywalker is thought to be the chosen one based on the, Jedi prophecy, but if this was created by Plagueis, he could be the supreme manipulater for E7 that brings the story full circle.

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  77. "Why not bring back Hayden Christian to play a cloned version of Darth Vader"

    What a nightmare that would be. Can't we just forget that the prequels ever happened. Trying to erase that whole shit storm and crummy cast from my memory.

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  78. regardless of the plot/story in this movie. It should be rated PG-13 or R and should not be made to cator to children. Lucas/Disney have an opportunity here to make some fantastic movies. So make them dark, evil, violent action packed thrillers ( i.e. Game of Thrones ). Are the Jedi gonna be bad asses like Mace, Yoda etc...or are they gonna be wimpy acting bullied victims like young Obi Wan and Anakin? Not to bust anyone's bubble, but Anakin was a whiney wimp and at no point was his character believable even with the transistion to Darth Vader. RTOS reminded me of the pitiful ending of RTOJ. How does a no trained half-jedi take out the worst villian of all time. Seriously!? Oh and less computer imaging please....save it for the special effects not the characters....

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    1. I also want to add that the prequels were pretty lame in themselves. Honestly, The Phantom Menace should had been about a 16 yr.old kid, not a 7 yr.old. Anyone that followed/follows Star Wars knows that Anakin was supposed to be a bad ass and better at everything than anyone else. Wasted 2 hours of my life watching Jedi's babysitting a child. Then Attack of the Clones, another let down. Anakin should have been 21 to 30 yrs old in this movie and the dark side should have played a heavier role in his life. Someone smack this kid, time to toughen up! If one compares the acting abilities between characters in a New Hope, Empire Strikes Back to the Prequels one should be vomiting to the horrible acting. Alec Guiness probably stood up in his grave yelling WTF! Now this could have also been due to the over use of CGI in the films. Either way the prequels sucked and the sucked because Lucas didn't listen the 1978 to 1986 Fans, instead he listened to the younger children and lost track. Then comes RTOS, ugh! This film should had been focused entirely on the transistion to Darth Vader. Anakin should be 35 to 40 yrs.old in the film, he should have been in the true Vader costume by the middle of the movie killing everyone. There should have been fight scenes of Vader and other Jedi's. This is where Lucas really lost track, he's more fcused the bridge to A NEW HOPE that he forgets that fans want to see their favorite villian kick serious ass. Chewbacca is introduced, the babies Luke & Lea are there, WTF is Solo? So hopefully these new films will be what the fans want, and they will allow the story to move on its own momentum. What does that mean? It means, DISNEY don't assume your fan base can't put the pieces of the puzzle together by themselves. We don't need it spelled out for us. **Editing sucks on here to *

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  79. If its Plagueis, then we could get a new back story because as you know the EU is no longer canon and that novel - is no longer canon. How did he live on if Sidious killed him in his sleep? Cloning? But thats the fanfic poppcock byproduct of the imagination of one Tom Veitch.

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